Question about head gaskets

[mikelbeck]

I've had a problem with my engine where I got some coolant in the oil at the end of last season. I pulled the passenger side head off to have a look. There was a bunch of coolant in the cylinders, and the gaskets looked OK.

http://www.linkedimages.com/images/mikelbeck/1000685.jpg
http://www.linkedimages.com/images/mikelbeck/1000686.jpg

The #2 piston is much cleaner than the others, so I'm guessing that's where the coolant was getting in. Also, between #4 and #6 was very wet, but I don't know if this happened when I pulled the head off or not.

I noticed that one of the water passages looks like it's blocked off on the gasket.

http://www.linkedimages.com/images/mikelbeck/headgasket.jpg

I'm guessing that this is how it's supposed to be, as other gaskets I've looked at are the same way.

This gasket looks to be in OK shape, no tears in it. I'll going to pull the other side off this weekend and have a look.

The heads were milled, and when I first put them on I had a problem with the intake sealing correctly, so I'm kinda thinking that this is what's happened again. But I also found that the head gaskets I've used are too big (4.150 bore for a 4.030 bores), and too think (almost .050). I'm going to go with something closer to the same bore and thinning, either the Mopar thin gasket or perhaps Cometics.

The guys over on MoparTech said I should pull it apart, put in new bearings and re-ring it. If I was going to do that I'd replace the pistons as well, probably with some that'd give me a 0 deck (like the KB107s) to bring the compression up a bit. And then I'd change the cam & lifters, but all that work would put my car in the 11s so I'd need to put in a roll bar or cage too. With the seasons starting next month and the funds for doing this not available, I don't think I'm going this route. I will pull the pan and have a look at the bearings, though.

Also, I bashed up a pushrod last year... I figured the head was just pulverised and wound up in the oil. But I was wrong! When I pulled the intake off, I found the cup from the pushrod sitting in the lifter valley:

http://www.linkedimages.com/images/mikelbeck/1000684.jpg

I guess I'm just looking for opinions, or maybe some suggestions.

[onehellofadart]

Mikel during the course of the season did you run any
compression checks on your cylinders? Is there any scaring
on the cyl walls? How have your plugs looked prior to the
new problem. I know you had a problem with replacing the push
rods any evidence there is still a problem there? I agree you
should look at the bottom end. Then make the decision whether
or not to replace anything. Seems to me the problem lies in the
top end not the bottom. The carbon on top of your pistons has to
do with sealing I believe and yes the clean one appears to
have been steam cleaned.

[mikelbeck]

Mikel during the course of the season did you run any
compression checks on your cylinders? Is there any scaring
on the cyl walls? How have your plugs looked prior to the
new problem. I know you had a problem with replacing the push
rods any evidence there is still a problem there? I agree you
should look at the bottom end. Then make the decision whether
or not to replace anything. Seems to me the problem lies in the
top end not the bottom. The carbon on top of your pistons has to
do with sealing I believe and yes the clean one appears to
have been steam cleaned.

Whew, a lot of questions there. ;-)

No, I did not run any compression checks. There was no need to, the engine was running fine.

No scarring on the cylinders as far as I can tell. I haven't looked at the driver's side yet, the head is still on that side. Hopefully I'll get some time tomorrow to pull it off.

The plugs (when I pulled them out before pulling the head) were black, but not too black, as if it was running rich.

I ordered custom-length pushrods from Smith Brothers, and my too-long pushrod problem went away.

The carbon on the pistons could be due to blow-by? If that's the case then I should re-ring it.

I'm gonna pull the oil pan and have a look down there. If I need to replace the bearings I'll have to pull the crank out, right?

[sickt7cuda]

Too bad you didn't do a leak-down test before you pulled the head. That would have been very telling along with a static compression test. Before you go tearing things apart, I would put the heads back on and do those tests. You will either rule out or confirm a ring or head problem, plus make sure your valves are fully seated. For the price of a set of head gaskets, you could save yourself a lot of trouble and money in the long run. My 2 cents.

[onehellofadart]

I'm gonna pull the oil pan and have a look down there. If I need to replace the bearings I'll have to pull the crank out, right?

I don't know. I think you have to stretch test those bolts :unsure:
don't you?

[mikelbeck]

I'm gonna pull the oil pan and have a look down there. If I need to replace the bearings I'll have to pull the crank out, right?

I don't know. I think you have to stretch test those bolts :unsure:
don't you?

Wot?

I have no clue, I've never replaced the bearings... Or installed them. Don't know nuttin' about it.

[onehellofadart]

http://www.circletrack.com/tipstricks/4636/

Scroll down to Crank shaft placement and look at the picture
and then rod bearing clearance .
I would have a machine shop do your rotating assemble.

[mikelbeck]

http://www.circletrack.com/tipstricks/4636/

Scroll down to Crank shaft placement and look at the picture
and then rod bearing clearance .
I would have a machine shop do your rotating assemble.

Ok, now I'm back to spending money I don't want to spend. :-(

[onehellofadart]

You probably don't have to go that far. If it was running good do
like Dan said put it back together and do a leak down and
compression test. Check the head and block surfaces for warp.
The tools and gauges for those tests less than $100.
If good seal it up better and worry about the blow bye when your
ready to do the motor.
You weren't smoking or blowing oil all over the track were you? :3gears:

[mikelbeck]

You probably don't have to go that far. If it was running good do
like Dan said put it back together and do a leak down and
compression test. Check the head and block surfaces for warp.
The tools and gauges for those tests less than $100.
If good seal it up better and worry about the blow bye when your
ready to do the motor.
You weren't smoking or blowing oil all over the track were you? :3gears:

No smoke, no oil leaking. Nice and dry under the car, always.

Is it worth it to do the leak down test now that I've already taken it apart? I've changed the equation, so to speak, so I don't know if the results would be valid. I guess I could put it all together with new gaskets and such and then do the tests to check my work.

[onehellofadart]

Cheapest way out for now :wink:

[mikelbeck]

I got the other side off... That side looked much better than the passenger side. The gasket looked like it was brand new. The pistons looked a little better on this side, too. They're still black, but it's a more uniform black. ;-)

So I'm guessing the problem was either in the intake gaskets or on the passenger's side.

The brown marks on the pistons is from where I rubbed them when I was drying up all the coolant in the cylinder.

http://www.linkedimages.com/images/mikelbeck/1000687.jpg

http://www.linkedimages.com/images/mikelbeck/1000688.jpg

[mikelbeck]

However...

I've had this crack in the lifter valley since I've owned this motor:

http://www.linkedimages.com/images/mikelbeck/1000690.jpg

THIS one, I'm not sure about. I don't remember seeing it before:

http://www.linkedimages.com/images/mikelbeck/1000689.jpg

[sickt7cuda]

Those holes in the lifter valley don't cause any problems. What I do see in one of the photos is what looks like a plugged or uncut opening in the head gasket, on the front right side of the block. Is it actually blocked or does it just look that way in the photo? That spot should to be open for the coolant to flow through the cylinder jackets. The left side looks open in the front and rear. What gives??????

[onehellofadart]

Did you find any metel in your oil pan?

[mikelbeck]

Those holes in the lifter valley don't cause any problems. What I do see in one of the photos is what looks like a plugged or uncut opening in the head gasket, on the front right side of the block. Is it actually blocked or does it just look that way in the photo? That spot should to be open for the coolant to flow through the cylinder jackets. The left side looks open in the front and rear. What gives??????

That's what I wanna know! The gasket itself is blocked off...

Here's a picture of a stock gasket from Fel-Pro:

http://www.pickproparts.com/picture%20server/fel/8553PT.jpg

It's blocked off on that one, too!

[mikelbeck]

Did you find any metel in your oil pan?

I haven't gotten that far yet.

[mikelbeck]

It's blocked off on that one, too!

I've been looking around, it seems to be blocked off on pretty much all of them:

Mopar: http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/dcc-4120094.jpg

Fel-Pro: http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/fel-8553pt_w.jpg

It's open on the SCE copper ones, though:
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/sce-069064_w.jpg
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/sce-069066_w.jpg

[onehellofadart]

Guess your gonna have to wait for Mr. Boggs to appear
and answer that one. :?

[mikelbeck]

Guess your gonna have to wait for Mr. Boggs to appear
and answer that one. :?

I just PM'd him, I'll let ya know what he says.

[onehellofadart]

Well what did he say?

[mikelbeck]

Well what did he say?

Nothing yet.

[onehellofadart]

:-k

[Khyron]

he said hurry up and wait ;)

[cboggs]

Mike,

If you've gone this far, .. I would pull the bottom end down & check, ..

Take the heads and have them pressure checked to see if they leak, ..
it's common to crack an iron ported head. That much water in the bore,
I'd be concerned.

I like Cometic Gaskets as well as Felpro, .. NO copper gaskets!!

On the water passage holes, .. on a drag only engine I've always made sure both sides where open. Chrysler blocks one side to effect water
circulation through the engine, .. I don't think it is the cause of your leak tho'

Being a cylinder head builder and not an engine builder I'm going to ask
one of my engine builder customers just to be sure. I wouldn't want
to stear you in the worng direction.

Sorry it took so long to get here, .. very very busy at the shop.

Curtis

[mikelbeck]

Ok, good. Thanks for the info.

I ordered the Fel-Pro 1008 head gaskets and 1213 intake gaskets.

On the water passage holes, .. on a drag only engine I've always made sure both sides where open. Chrysler blocks one side to effect water
circulation through the engine, .. I don't think it is the cause of your leak tho'

I don't think that's the cause of it either.

Is there any benefit to opening up the other side on the new gaskets?

Sorry it took so long to get here, .. very very busy at the shop.

No problem. I'd rather hear that you're too busy to stop in than to see you on here all day long and not working!

[onehellofadart]

You might run too cold if you open it up.

[mikelbeck]

You might run too cold if you open it up.

And too cold is bad? ;-)

I'm putting an alumunum radiator in one of these days, I guess I'm not gonna worry about the cooling after that.

[cboggs]

You might run too cold if you open it up.

And too cold is bad? ;-)



YES ! Running too cold IS a problem. if you can't get the engine to 180º
or 190º before your run, .. ..

**This may need some testing to find what temp the engine ET's best at, .. but too cold could easly could be a problem.**

I wouldn't put a dyno pull on an engine that wasn't up to at least 180º
and had a chance to heat soak, .. it's hard on parts.

Curtis

[mikelbeck]

You might run too cold if you open it up.

And too cold is bad? ;-)



YES ! Running too cold IS a problem. if you can't get the engine to 180º
or 190º before your run, .. ..

**This may need some testing to find what temp the engine ET's best at, .. but too cold could easly could be a problem.**

I wouldn't put a dyno pull on an engine that wasn't up to at least 180º
and had a chance to heat soak, .. it's hard on parts.

Curtis

Well, keeping my car below 180 has never really been a problem. It's usually around 180 by the time I stage. 200 at the top end of the track, 210+ (and climbing) on the return road. I'd rather have it be 160-170 when I stage, then about 200 on the return road.

I've found that this motor likes to be a little cooler... If I staage and it's over 180, I lose almost a tenth. If I stage and it's less than 160, though, it bogs. 170-180 is the sweet spot for this motor.

My neighbor has a motor that he never lets get over 140.

[mikelbeck]

I had the heads pressure tested, no problems, no leaks, no cracks.

And today I got the heads back on the motor! WOOHOO!

Next up is the intake, then firing it up to make sure there's no more leaks.

My neighbor, who's not even racing this year, got his car running today. That kind of motivated me to get going on this. :roll:

[DARTSPORT]

Good to hear that it is getting back together.. It won't be long before we can get to the track. 8)

[mikelbeck]

Good to hear that it is getting back together.. It won't be long before we can get to the track. 8)

Yeah, I'm starting to get itchy again. I nailed a guy in a Hyundia to the tree today while driving the wife's minivan. She wasn't amused.

She should be happy that I didn't try to warm up the tires beforehand!

[onehellofadart]

Glad to hear its going well. 58* today I got the itch also :3gears:

[82GT]

Why couldn't we have this weather on the weekend, It's killing me not being able to do anything!!

[sickt7cuda]

If the weather is crappy outside, I just find something to do inside, like calling Wes at Mancini's and ordering some Edelbrock heads. =P~ =P~

I'm gonna stick with the old cam (.509 hydraulic) for the 1st couple of weeks of racing, then swap it out to a solid one with more lift.

I'm really looking foward to the new season.

[mikelbeck]

If the weather is crappy outside, I just find something to do inside, like calling Wes at Mancini's and ordering some Edelbrock heads. =P~ =P~


Order up 2 sets, I could use one. ;-)

[sickt7cuda]

No problem, pal. Do you want yours polished and fully ported?

[mikelbeck]

No problem, pal. Do you want yours polished and fully ported?

Oh, of course. You might as well order the Indy versions of the E-Heads, I think they're already ported & polished.

Thanks, man!

[Mopower71]

If the weather is crappy outside, I just find something to do inside, like calling Wes at Mancini's and ordering some Edelbrock heads. =P~ =P~

I'm gonna stick with the old cam (.509 hydraulic) for the 1st couple of weeks of racing, then swap it out to a solid one with more lift.

I'm really looking foward to the new season.

We need your billing address, cause I'll take a set

[sickt7cuda]

Send the bill to: Dan DeSande
1 Goofy Rd
Fantasy Land, USA
383-451 :^o

[Mopower71]

What state is that in?

















The state of confusion? :mrgreen:

[racedak440]

Hi guys, great site, I'm the newbie from Canada and was browsing this post with great interest as something similar happened to me many years ago with my small block. Now, not wanting to take anything for granted, (which I did, and learned from it!) your head gaskets were of the permanent torque variety (not all of them are) also I assumed my machine shop was doing the work properly (thats what I was paying them to do, right) after the 3rd time apart, I discovered a chip on the edge of the combustion chamber that nobody saw (I assumed they would take care of that, 1st mistake) I was very green at the time and took lots for granted. I guess all I'm trying to say is, assume nothing. Other than that by your mph, it looks like you were making decent power, but I'll bet there's a couple of tenths sitting there with some fine tuning. Might help get rid of that nasty black stuff on your pistons as well. If your interested, I'd love to chat on the phone sometime, and hear what your running for carb combo,etc. and offer some suggestions from someone who's been through the ringer. Let me know if you're interested and I can give you my number via pm. Oh, by the way my name is Jim.

[onehellofadart]

Welcome aboard JIm :3gears:

[mikelbeck]

Welcome aboard, Jim.

You can check out the info on the car here:

http://www.burwoodboysracing.com/about_the_car.htm

[racedak440]

Thanks for the greeting guys. Mikelbeck I sent you an e-mail but I'm not sure it went through, it kind of disappeared off the screen on me. Let me know if you got it or not. Thanks

[sickt7cuda]

Welcome to the board, Jim. Just chime in with whatever is on your mind. We can always use ideas and opinions, and yes, we give 'em also.