Question about head gaskets
02-12-2005, 09:20 AM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Question about head gaskets
I've had a problem with my engine where I got some coolant in the oil at the end of last season. I pulled the passenger side head off to have a look. There was a bunch of coolant in the cylinders, and the gaskets looked OK.
The #2 piston is much cleaner than the others, so I'm guessing that's where the coolant was getting in. Also, between #4 and #6 was very wet, but I don't know if this happened when I pulled the head off or not.
I noticed that one of the water passages looks like it's blocked off on the gasket.
I'm guessing that this is how it's supposed to be, as other gaskets I've looked at are the same way.
This gasket looks to be in OK shape, no tears in it. I'll going to pull the other side off this weekend and have a look.
The heads were milled, and when I first put them on I had a problem with the intake sealing correctly, so I'm kinda thinking that this is what's happened again. But I also found that the head gaskets I've used are too big (4.150 bore for a 4.030 bores), and too think (almost .050). I'm going to go with something closer to the same bore and thinning, either the Mopar thin gasket or perhaps Cometics.
The guys over on MoparTech said I should pull it apart, put in new bearings and re-ring it. If I was going to do that I'd replace the pistons as well, probably with some that'd give me a 0 deck (like the KB107s) to bring the compression up a bit. And then I'd change the cam & lifters, but all that work would put my car in the 11s so I'd need to put in a roll bar or cage too. With the seasons starting next month and the funds for doing this not available, I don't think I'm going this route. I will pull the pan and have a look at the bearings, though.
Also, I bashed up a pushrod last year... I figured the head was just pulverised and wound up in the oil. But I was wrong! When I pulled the intake off, I found the cup from the pushrod sitting in the lifter valley:
I guess I'm just looking for opinions, or maybe some suggestions.
The #2 piston is much cleaner than the others, so I'm guessing that's where the coolant was getting in. Also, between #4 and #6 was very wet, but I don't know if this happened when I pulled the head off or not.
I noticed that one of the water passages looks like it's blocked off on the gasket.
I'm guessing that this is how it's supposed to be, as other gaskets I've looked at are the same way.
This gasket looks to be in OK shape, no tears in it. I'll going to pull the other side off this weekend and have a look.
The heads were milled, and when I first put them on I had a problem with the intake sealing correctly, so I'm kinda thinking that this is what's happened again. But I also found that the head gaskets I've used are too big (4.150 bore for a 4.030 bores), and too think (almost .050). I'm going to go with something closer to the same bore and thinning, either the Mopar thin gasket or perhaps Cometics.
The guys over on MoparTech said I should pull it apart, put in new bearings and re-ring it. If I was going to do that I'd replace the pistons as well, probably with some that'd give me a 0 deck (like the KB107s) to bring the compression up a bit. And then I'd change the cam & lifters, but all that work would put my car in the 11s so I'd need to put in a roll bar or cage too. With the seasons starting next month and the funds for doing this not available, I don't think I'm going this route. I will pull the pan and have a look at the bearings, though.
Also, I bashed up a pushrod last year... I figured the head was just pulverised and wound up in the oil. But I was wrong! When I pulled the intake off, I found the cup from the pushrod sitting in the lifter valley:
I guess I'm just looking for opinions, or maybe some suggestions.
02-12-2005, 10:59 AM
#2
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Moonachie, NJ
Posts: 886
Mikel during the course of the season did you run any
compression checks on your cylinders? Is there any scaring
on the cyl walls? How have your plugs looked prior to the
new problem. I know you had a problem with replacing the push
rods any evidence there is still a problem there? I agree you
should look at the bottom end. Then make the decision whether
or not to replace anything. Seems to me the problem lies in the
top end not the bottom. The carbon on top of your pistons has to
do with sealing I believe and yes the clean one appears to
have been steam cleaned.
compression checks on your cylinders? Is there any scaring
on the cyl walls? How have your plugs looked prior to the
new problem. I know you had a problem with replacing the push
rods any evidence there is still a problem there? I agree you
should look at the bottom end. Then make the decision whether
or not to replace anything. Seems to me the problem lies in the
top end not the bottom. The carbon on top of your pistons has to
do with sealing I believe and yes the clean one appears to
have been steam cleaned.
02-12-2005, 11:19 AM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by onehellofadart
Mikel during the course of the season did you run any
compression checks on your cylinders? Is there any scaring
on the cyl walls? How have your plugs looked prior to the
new problem. I know you had a problem with replacing the push
rods any evidence there is still a problem there? I agree you
should look at the bottom end. Then make the decision whether
or not to replace anything. Seems to me the problem lies in the
top end not the bottom. The carbon on top of your pistons has to
do with sealing I believe and yes the clean one appears to
have been steam cleaned.
compression checks on your cylinders? Is there any scaring
on the cyl walls? How have your plugs looked prior to the
new problem. I know you had a problem with replacing the push
rods any evidence there is still a problem there? I agree you
should look at the bottom end. Then make the decision whether
or not to replace anything. Seems to me the problem lies in the
top end not the bottom. The carbon on top of your pistons has to
do with sealing I believe and yes the clean one appears to
have been steam cleaned.
No, I did not run any compression checks. There was no need to, the engine was running fine.
No scarring on the cylinders as far as I can tell. I haven't looked at the driver's side yet, the head is still on that side. Hopefully I'll get some time tomorrow to pull it off.
The plugs (when I pulled them out before pulling the head) were black, but not too black, as if it was running rich.
I ordered custom-length pushrods from Smith Brothers, and my too-long pushrod problem went away.
The carbon on the pistons could be due to blow-by? If that's the case then I should re-ring it.
I'm gonna pull the oil pan and have a look down there. If I need to replace the bearings I'll have to pull the crank out, right?
02-12-2005, 11:42 AM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Vernon, New Jersey
Posts: 278
Too bad you didn't do a leak-down test before you pulled the head. That would have been very telling along with a static compression test. Before you go tearing things apart, I would put the heads back on and do those tests. You will either rule out or confirm a ring or head problem, plus make sure your valves are fully seated. For the price of a set of head gaskets, you could save yourself a lot of trouble and money in the long run. My 2 cents.
02-12-2005, 02:50 PM
#5
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Moonachie, NJ
Posts: 886
Originally Posted by mikelbeck
I'm gonna pull the oil pan and have a look down there. If I need to replace the bearings I'll have to pull the crank out, right?
don't you?
02-12-2005, 03:21 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by onehellofadart
Originally Posted by mikelbeck
I'm gonna pull the oil pan and have a look down there. If I need to replace the bearings I'll have to pull the crank out, right?
don't you?
I have no clue, I've never replaced the bearings... Or installed them. Don't know nuttin' about it.
02-12-2005, 04:31 PM
#7
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Moonachie, NJ
Posts: 886
http://www.circletrack.com/tipstricks/4636/
Scroll down to Crank shaft placement and look at the picture
and then rod bearing clearance .
I would have a machine shop do your rotating assemble.
Scroll down to Crank shaft placement and look at the picture
and then rod bearing clearance .
I would have a machine shop do your rotating assemble.
02-12-2005, 04:41 PM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by onehellofadart
http://www.circletrack.com/tipstricks/4636/
Scroll down to Crank shaft placement and look at the picture
and then rod bearing clearance .
I would have a machine shop do your rotating assemble.
Scroll down to Crank shaft placement and look at the picture
and then rod bearing clearance .
I would have a machine shop do your rotating assemble.
02-12-2005, 04:51 PM
#9
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Moonachie, NJ
Posts: 886
You probably don't have to go that far. If it was running good do
like Dan said put it back together and do a leak down and
compression test. Check the head and block surfaces for warp.
The tools and gauges for those tests less than $100.
If good seal it up better and worry about the blow bye when your
ready to do the motor.
You weren't smoking or blowing oil all over the track were you?
like Dan said put it back together and do a leak down and
compression test. Check the head and block surfaces for warp.
The tools and gauges for those tests less than $100.
If good seal it up better and worry about the blow bye when your
ready to do the motor.
You weren't smoking or blowing oil all over the track were you?
02-12-2005, 05:23 PM
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by onehellofadart
You probably don't have to go that far. If it was running good do
like Dan said put it back together and do a leak down and
compression test. Check the head and block surfaces for warp.
The tools and gauges for those tests less than $100.
If good seal it up better and worry about the blow bye when your
ready to do the motor.
You weren't smoking or blowing oil all over the track were you?
like Dan said put it back together and do a leak down and
compression test. Check the head and block surfaces for warp.
The tools and gauges for those tests less than $100.
If good seal it up better and worry about the blow bye when your
ready to do the motor.
You weren't smoking or blowing oil all over the track were you?
Is it worth it to do the leak down test now that I've already taken it apart? I've changed the equation, so to speak, so I don't know if the results would be valid. I guess I could put it all together with new gaskets and such and then do the tests to check my work.
02-13-2005, 05:16 PM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
I got the other side off... That side looked much better than the passenger side. The gasket looked like it was brand new. The pistons looked a little better on this side, too. They're still black, but it's a more uniform black.
So I'm guessing the problem was either in the intake gaskets or on the passenger's side.
The brown marks on the pistons is from where I rubbed them when I was drying up all the coolant in the cylinder.
So I'm guessing the problem was either in the intake gaskets or on the passenger's side.
The brown marks on the pistons is from where I rubbed them when I was drying up all the coolant in the cylinder.
02-13-2005, 05:44 PM
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Vernon, New Jersey
Posts: 278
Those holes in the lifter valley don't cause any problems. What I do see in one of the photos is what looks like a plugged or uncut opening in the head gasket, on the front right side of the block. Is it actually blocked or does it just look that way in the photo? That spot should to be open for the coolant to flow through the cylinder jackets. The left side looks open in the front and rear. What gives??????
02-13-2005, 09:09 PM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by sickt7cuda
Those holes in the lifter valley don't cause any problems. What I do see in one of the photos is what looks like a plugged or uncut opening in the head gasket, on the front right side of the block. Is it actually blocked or does it just look that way in the photo? That spot should to be open for the coolant to flow through the cylinder jackets. The left side looks open in the front and rear. What gives??????
Here's a picture of a stock gasket from Fel-Pro:
It's blocked off on that one, too!
02-24-2005, 11:12 AM
#25
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lorton, VA
Posts: 21
Mike,
If you've gone this far, .. I would pull the bottom end down & check, ..
Take the heads and have them pressure checked to see if they leak, ..
it's common to crack an iron ported head. That much water in the bore,
I'd be concerned.
I like Cometic Gaskets as well as Felpro, .. NO copper gaskets!!
On the water passage holes, .. on a drag only engine I've always made sure both sides where open. Chrysler blocks one side to effect water
circulation through the engine, .. I don't think it is the cause of your leak tho'
Being a cylinder head builder and not an engine builder I'm going to ask
one of my engine builder customers just to be sure. I wouldn't want
to stear you in the worng direction.
Sorry it took so long to get here, .. very very busy at the shop.
Curtis
If you've gone this far, .. I would pull the bottom end down & check, ..
Take the heads and have them pressure checked to see if they leak, ..
it's common to crack an iron ported head. That much water in the bore,
I'd be concerned.
I like Cometic Gaskets as well as Felpro, .. NO copper gaskets!!
On the water passage holes, .. on a drag only engine I've always made sure both sides where open. Chrysler blocks one side to effect water
circulation through the engine, .. I don't think it is the cause of your leak tho'
Being a cylinder head builder and not an engine builder I'm going to ask
one of my engine builder customers just to be sure. I wouldn't want
to stear you in the worng direction.
Sorry it took so long to get here, .. very very busy at the shop.
Curtis
02-24-2005, 02:46 PM
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ok, good. Thanks for the info.
I ordered the Fel-Pro 1008 head gaskets and 1213 intake gaskets.
I don't think that's the cause of it either.
Is there any benefit to opening up the other side on the new gaskets?
No problem. I'd rather hear that you're too busy to stop in than to see you on here all day long and not working!
I ordered the Fel-Pro 1008 head gaskets and 1213 intake gaskets.
On the water passage holes, .. on a drag only engine I've always made sure both sides where open. Chrysler blocks one side to effect water
circulation through the engine, .. I don't think it is the cause of your leak tho'
circulation through the engine, .. I don't think it is the cause of your leak tho'
Is there any benefit to opening up the other side on the new gaskets?
Sorry it took so long to get here, .. very very busy at the shop.
02-25-2005, 12:07 PM
#29
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lorton, VA
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by mikelbeck
Originally Posted by onehellofadart
You might run too cold if you open it up.
or 190º before your run, .. ..
**This may need some testing to find what temp the engine ET's best at, .. but too cold could easly could be a problem.**
I wouldn't put a dyno pull on an engine that wasn't up to at least 180º
and had a chance to heat soak, .. it's hard on parts.
Curtis
02-25-2005, 10:56 PM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by cboggs
Originally Posted by mikelbeck
Originally Posted by onehellofadart
You might run too cold if you open it up.
or 190º before your run, .. ..
**This may need some testing to find what temp the engine ET's best at, .. but too cold could easly could be a problem.**
I wouldn't put a dyno pull on an engine that wasn't up to at least 180º
and had a chance to heat soak, .. it's hard on parts.
Curtis
I've found that this motor likes to be a little cooler... If I staage and it's over 180, I lose almost a tenth. If I stage and it's less than 160, though, it bogs. 170-180 is the sweet spot for this motor.
My neighbor has a motor that he never lets get over 140.